The Shadow Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, Stuart Andrew, joins us on The Spotlight Podcast to discuss how cultural policies impact performers.
The Rt. Hon. Stuart Andrews MP, the Shadow Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, joins us in the Spotlight studio to discuss how cultural policies impact performers. He talks about engaging with industry professionals to help inform policy development and his role as a “constructive opposition”, raising issues that are important to our sector, supporting the government’s efforts to bolster the creative industries while also challenging them to do more.
Stuart Andrew MP / Image credit: NK Photography
Stuart has been a member of Parliament since 2010 and worked in various posts within the Conservative Government, including in the Department for Digital Culture, Media and Sport as well as being Minister for Equalities. Last year, he was appointed Shadow Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport and Spotlight has been meeting with him, and MPs from across the political parties, to discuss issues that are currently affecting performers.
In this episode, Stuart shares his enthusiasm for the performing arts, from high-profile events like Eurovision to local community productions and discusses why the availability of grassroots training is essential. He explains the importance of finding a balance between supporting the industry and being realistic about public finances and also touches upon the significance of protecting intellectual property in the age of artificial intelligence and maintaining the UK’s reputation in the creative industries.
This episode is part of a series of interviews with politicians who shape policies that affect all of us working within the creative industries.
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Transcript
Edited for clarity.
Hi Stuart! Can you start off by just telling us a little bit about yourself and your position in the Shadow Cabinet, as well as how culture fits into what you do?
I’m the Member of Parliament for Daventry and, also, I’ve been given the honour to be the Shadow Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport. I used to be a minister in the Department of Culture, Media and Sport in the previous government, but my role was very much looking after sport, civil society, gambling and so on.
Whereas, now, because I’m the Shadow Secretary of State, I’ve got to know the whole brief. It’s been a massive learning curve for me to try and learn the other half of it, which is an incredibly important part of what the department covers. It’s a really interesting job. It’s one where you’ve got to try and keep abreast of what’s going on in government and new legislation and decisions that are being made and how that may impact the sectors that we cover within the department. It’s a busy role because we’ve got such a variety of things that we’re responsible for.
Do you have any experience around performing, performing arts?
Only from my childhood. I grew up in Anglesey in North Wales and, of course, the Eisteddfod, is something that was incredibly important to Welsh culture. Believe it or not, I used to be in the team that did the folk dancing.
I used to be able to sing before my voice broke. I went to the same secondary school as Aled Jones, and, unfortunately, it turned out much better for him than it did [for] me.
There’s that famous saying that all politicians are failed actors so that’s probably the extent of it. But what fascinates me is the rich, diverse culture we have in this country. And it’s incumbent on all of us to make sure that we’re doing everything we can to see it go from strength to strength.
How are you finding your new position that covers culture and media as well as sport?
It’s a huge learning curve, if I’m being really honest. When you’re in government, you have this team of civil servants behind you who are really engrossed in the policy area, [who] know the issues inside out and brief you to within an inch of your life on the issues that are being faced by the various sectors. In opposition, you’re on your own.
When I was appointed to this role, I thought, “How am I going to keep myself up to date with what’s going on? What are the issues that the sectors are facing?” And so what I’ve been doing is a series of one-to-one meetings with each of the organisations [and] then having roundtables, which I have found absolutely fascinating. There are things that I hadn’t even thought of that people are raising that are really useful for me in doing my job.
I see my role as being a constructive opposition. It’s to try and help raise issues that are important to the sectors, make sure that ministers are aware of them and challenge them if they’re not doing anything on it. But, also, to support where we can see that they’re trying to improve the lot for everybody if you like.
Because the creative industries are such a vast part of the economy, it’s really important we get it right. The media world, for example, is changing at a rapid rate, where there are potential threats and challenges from other areas internationally to what is the world-renowned quality of the creative industries in the UK, which is something that I’m really keen to keep abreast of. Where the government is trying to do what it can to help, I will absolutely support it. But if I don’t think they’re going far enough, my job is to ensure that the voice of those sectors is heard in Parliament.
There’s a roundtable happening at Spotlight today about injury prevention and what can be done to help prevent injury to cast and crew on productions. How aware are you of the prevalence of injury that happens to performers at work?
This is one of those things that is becoming more evident to me as I start to learn a lot about this role. I think what’s really interesting about this report is its industry trying to come up with solutions itself, I often think that is the best way. A government should only really step in if the industry is failing. From what I can see, and have heard so far, this report has identified steps that the industry itself can take to ensure that those performers are aware of the tasks that they’re going to be asked to do. Are they ready for that? Can they do it? Or do they need assistance to do it? And then making sure that those performers have the confidence to say that they may need some extra help.
I think if we can build that environment that gives confidence to performers, but also that industry themselves are thinking about these [things] ahead of whatever it is they’re doing, that can only be for the good. In the long term, it’s probably going to save the industry a lot of money, because you get an injury, and it may delay the production, and that always means more cost.
Do you have any thoughts about what could be improved in the industry, or how things could be taken further when it comes to addressing some of the challenges?
I suspect it will be more about the government keeping abreast of the implementation of recommendations in this report and if it’s happening fast enough. I prefer it to come from the industry itself because there is ownership of it then, and everybody’s bought into making it work. Whereas, if you just think about legislation, I think that perhaps you’re not getting it into the mindset of people.
I think it’s much more effective because people within the industry have come up with the challenges, the risks, but also the solutions. With the best will in the world, as politicians, I don’t know what I’m supposed to do on a film set, so there’s a danger that we could get it badly wrong.
My message is to encourage the industry to look at this because it’s within your interest to get this right. It will mean that you’ve fewer risks of delays in production, but also, it means the people that you’re working with will hopefully be working in a safe environment.
Of course, we have health and safety [laws] and all of that [and] that has to continue, but there are ways here that people can start to think ahead of the game and plan properly to ensure that they don’t have any of those risks that perhaps we’ve seen in the past.
You’ve been really supportive of Spotlight’s work when it comes to highlighting the safety and financial problems that are facing our young performers. What changes would you like to see to improve these issues?
This is why I’ve been holding a series of roundtables because I want to hear from industry [about] what are the issues that people are facing. That meeting I had with Spotlight, where they raised this issue about young performers and the challenges that might come about because of the legislation about school absences that was going through and there’s a risk that young people are going to miss out on the opportunities to have a great career in the creative industry. That was a bill that was coming through the Department for Education.
My role was to then speak to the Shadow Education team to ensure that they were aware of it. And to be fair, Laura Trott, who’s the Shadow Secretary of State for Education, when I talked to her about it, she had some awareness, but actually, the briefing that Spotlight gave me was really helpful. These are the things that she’s having discussions with ministers continually.
I want to make sure that we don’t, pardon the pun, throw the baby out with the bath water. Yes, we’ve got to make sure that school attendance is the best that it should be – they’re really important formative years of any young person’s life — but that we don’t actually have the risk of unintended consequences. And that we make sure that everything is done to ensure that they’re safe environments for young performers to take part in.
Grassroots training is essential for young performers, particularly if they come from working-class backgrounds. There’s a perfect example in Owen Cooper who is currently starring in Adolescence as he was trained by The Drama MOB in Manchester. What could you, or the government, do to help facilitate those learning environments?
Grassroots anything is something I feel very passionate about. When I was Sports Minister, we had a real programme of investment in grassroots sports facilities because I want people, from whatever background, to be able to try and practise and excel at the things that they have a natural talent for. And that will be the same in terms of finding performers, actors and singers. I want them to have the best opportunities possible.
For me, it’s really important to acknowledge that not everybody is academically brilliant. I know, I wasn’t and I don’t want to waste the talent that those people have. I think it’s really about a partnership arrangement [and] thinking about how to develop that to go forward. There’s [also] raising awareness that these opportunities exist to get that training, that you don’t necessarily have to go to some of the big establishments that, for many families, the dream is killed within an instant because they can’t even contemplate going to any of those. But, if just down the road from your house, there’s the opportunity to have mentoring and training, then brilliant! I’d love to see how we could develop that more.
It’s always a challenge because funding is always the big issue and at the moment, we’re not making any spending commitments. But it doesn’t always have to be about government money. We should think about how we do this in a more imaginative way. Because if we are interested in getting the best talent – and this young actor [Owen Cooper] clearly has made a huge impact because everybody’s talking about that programme – there’s a real incentive for the industry to go out there and find the best talent that exists, and not always from the usual net that they cast.
I think that’s going to be something that we, as a party, when we start thinking about future policy development, is an area I’m keen for us to explore further.
With the recent announcement of the government’s Industrial Strategy Plan, and the additional investment in the creative industries, what do you think should be the priorities for creative industries when it comes to investment and growth?
I’m very proud of the fact that the creative industries are such a huge part of our economy. And in government, we did everything we could to offer help and support, particularly through some of the most challenging periods, the pandemic, for example.
[Regarding] the opportunities for the future, I think we also need to look at what the risks are. We don’t know what’s going to happen in terms of potential trade wars and incentives for American creative industries to have better incentives to do more over there. We need to safeguard against some of that and think about how we might tackle some of that. I know I keep going back to these roundtables, but I’m actively listening to the industry themselves, so that we can ensure that we’re asking the right questions, and we’re thinking about the right approach to what those potential risks are.
The reputation of the UK in the creative industries world is phenomenal and we must always continue to build on that. It’s been, I think, the fastest-growing part of the economy for a reason, because the quality of stuff that’s produced, the imaginative stuff that’s produced, is really world-leading. I want us to make sure that we maintain that approach.
I’m worried that there are factors that may cause that to be even more challenging. Some of those external factors I mentioned. But I am worried about the impact of national insurance contribution increases, business rates, etc. that just make it harder for the industry to thrive. That’s the role we have, to highlight those risks to the government, to push them to think about what more could be done to support them in building what is something we should all be very proud of.
There’s been a lot of increased spend on film and television announced by Culture Secretary, Lisa Nandy. Everyone associates film and television products with the performers that they see on screen but, often, the increased investment in film and television doesn’t trickle down to a performer’s income. How would you change that?
Oh, that’s a really tricky question and I wish I had the solution here and now. These are the things that we’re taking time to listen to the sectors about so that we can think about what could be done that doesn’t become so onerous.
There’s always a tightrope in government because if you become too regulatory, or too prescriptive about what people should or should not do, there’s a risk that you put off that investment. And I would not want to see that happen. But, equally, we have to recognise that all of these things that we all enjoy, whether it be in the cinema, in the theatres, or on our sofa at home, there are a whole host of people that make that work possible and we have to make sure that we have the right environment for that.
It’s a tricky one to answer and I don’t pretend that I’ve got the answers here and now but what I hope is that through that continued dialogue with people in the sector who understand it and may have proposals and solutions, those are things that we might consider then as taking forward for policy development.
A recent study by the British Equity Collecting Society (BECS) suggests that over 50% of actors come from a background that is typically associated with the highest levels of social and economic privilege. What more do you think could be done to encourage people from a diverse range of backgrounds to become performers, especially when pay is an issue?
I do worry that, perhaps at the family home, if the young person, for example, decides, “I’d love to become an actor, a singer, a performer,” whatever it may be, that because their background has been challenging, families, and I understand it, warn against going into the industry. Because it might not be secure, you might not earn any money, and so on. I get that. There are so many anecdotes of people, parents, maybe saying, “No, you need to get a proper job.” Actually, this is a really thriving industry.
One of the things that I’ve had the privilege of, in this role, is going around the country and seeing the diverse range of roles that exist. And the best and most brilliant schemes for me are those where there are apprenticeship schemes for young people to get into the industry. I think things like that are really empowering. We just need to raise the value of that in people’s minds and people’s consciousness.
I would also argue that no business is guaranteed to ensure that you’re always going to be successful. Every single work that people do has an element of risk to it, whatever it may be. If you’re working in retail, you don’t know that that shop or that store is going to be there for the rest of your life. If you’re an MP, you don’t know whether you’re going to still be there in a few years’ time. Risk is a part of our life, and if you’ve got a passion for something like the creative industries, then go for it.
In the same BECS survey, they suggested there was no real difference in earnings between men and women, regardless of race, sexuality, or whether or not they’re privileged, which is great. However, there is a sizable difference in income when it comes to those with disabilities. How do you think the industry should look to address that?
It’s good that there isn’t a difference between men and women and different ethnicities. That’s brilliant. So if you can do it for that, why can’t you do it for people with disabilities? So that would be the challenge I’d put to the industry is, why?
Do you have any suggestions?
I genuinely don’t know why. But I know that one of the things that really struck me here at Spotlight was the move to this new premises. The thing that actually everybody talks about is how this is now an accessible building. And people with whatever range of disabilities can come here and audition, just like everybody else. From what I can gather, the old building would’ve been impossible. So, clearly, Spotlight is doing it, so the rest of the industry needs to follow suit.
You were talking earlier about threats and challenges that could come to our industry and there’s an increased focus on artificial intelligence (AI) lately. What steps would you like to see taken to ensure that AI supports, rather than replaces, human creativity, particularly in the performing arts?
I would say it’s the biggest challenge facing us at the moment but, also, one of the biggest opportunities too. I had a roundtable with creative industries to talk about this very issue. And I said to them, “Tell us, what are the issues that you’re thinking about?”
First, there was concern about the way the government had done the consultation. They feel like this opt-out idea is just not going to work and they were very vocal about that. I thought one of the best descriptions that I heard was someone said, “It’s a bit like putting a Post-it Note on your front door saying, ‘I opt out of being burgled.'” And, for my simple mind, I understood it completely then. So the issue is how.
I think one of the things we’ve got to be very proud of in this country is our copyright [law]. It’s something that is renowned throughout the whole world. It’s something that people really appreciate. That’s why, as the Data Bill comes to the Commons, we are laying a series of amendments. Things like the government making restatement, if you like, of copyright. Also, about transparency, because that was the other thing that the industry told us was really important.
Alan Mak, who’s leading on this for us, is looking at things like watermarking in a digital age. All of these things, I think, are really important because, at the end of the day, if you’ve taken the time to create something, then absolutely. Would we stand for this if, for example, a car manufacturer had exactly the same thing being produced at a cheaper rate because they’ve nicked all the data? No.
It’s about making sure the balance is right, and that the opportunities that exist are taken. And I think what I hear from the industry is, actually, they’re already using AI. They want to be a part of it. I think that was really helpful because, at first, I felt like it was creative industries versus AI.
What was really helpful was UK AI coming out and saying, “Actually, we don’t think these proposals work.” So, let’s find that ground that enables this country to succeed and grasp the opportunities AI brings, but also protect the creativity that so many people have contributed to over the years.
I’m not pretending it’s an easy solution. Some of it is challenging, but some of it is actually quite basic. And I think that copyright bit, for me, is central to it.
I think what we want to do is make sure that we are getting that perfect balance right, recognising that when someone’s created something it’s their property. And I think we’ve got to make sure we are safeguarding that so that we are still competitive around the world.
Other countries may go in a completely different direction, so finding that sweet spot is the big challenge that we are actively thinking about right now.
In the Conservative Manifesto at the last election, there was no direct reference to the performing arts. Now that you’re in post, and understanding a lot more about the issues that are impacting performers and the wider production crew, what would your priorities be for policies affecting us all?
For me, it’s about making sure that we have safe environments for the development of whatever it may be, but that we don’t become too restrictive. If we have too much regulation, I fear that that quashes creativity.
We’ve been asked by the leader of the party, in each of our sectors, to engage extensively, to understand what are the questions that need answers. And for us to take our time considering what that might be. Because we want to know that whatever it is, we can actually deliver it.
I think one of the failings my party made, I’m being really honest about this, is that sometimes we overpromised and we underdelivered. That serves no one. So taking our time to properly engage with the sectors, and all of the different elements of those sectors, thinking about what are the best things that will help the sector to thrive and grow. Because, at the end of the day, that helps us economically. When the economy grows, it means we’ve got more money to spend on public services. So it’s all a pattern, really. And that is why we are taking our time at the moment to listen, to engage, and then to start bringing in experts to help us develop the priorities that, actually, the industry would want to see.
When it comes to the future, what would you like to see, or what would your policies be, around supporting sustainable careers for performers so we can keep this industry thriving?
This industry has been a huge success over the last 10, 14 years. We’ve seen it go from strength to strength. The priority for me is maintaining that and making it go even further. But being really honest about what we might be able to do or not do because we’ve always got to have one eye on what the public finances might be like, and how much money there is to spend.
Let’s be frank and honest about this, there will be priorities, like making sure our streets are safe, the hospitals are working and schools are there for our children. That doesn’t mean that we’re necessarily always at the back of the queue because, actually, I think, at times when it’s needed, we’ve introduced tax incentives. We’ve given funding to expand the creative industries outside of London and the Southeast. And so seeing more of that would be something that I would be keen to do, but with always one eye on being realistic about what we can deliver.
How can the performing arts, and the wider entertainment industries, work to support what you’re trying to achieve?
Get in touch. My team and I, in the Shadow DCMS [Department of Culture, Media and Sport] team, are literally
out and about, doing visits like I’ve done today, doing this podcast. Getting people in who know the industry inside out and educating us. I think there’d be nothing worse than my team, or any politician, telling you, as an industry, “We know best.” Because, actually, we don’t. We’ll have ideas. We have thoughts. We know there are ways in which we can think about solutions to problems. But it’s about a collaboration of understanding what are the challenges and what are the opportunities? Because, what I get frustrated about sometimes, is that we often talk about the problems. And those are important. We never really give as much attention to, what are the opportunities? What can we do that can see that growth we’ve seen go even further and encourage more people from around the world to come to the UK to invest and to create the jobs and the opportunities?
And then the other thing is about spreading opportunity to a wider net of our society. Because, as you referenced earlier with Adolescence, there’s serious talent out there, it just needs nurturing.
I’m taking a little bit of a tangent but we have someone representing the UK this year in Eurovision who performs in the West End. And you were previously involved with Eurovision when we hosted on behalf of Ukraine. Could tell us a little bit about that event, and how you helped shape it? And what was a highlight of it for you?
My partner, he’s interested politically, but when I was the Housing Minister, he wasn’t particularly interested, nor, when I was in Defence. When I told him, “I’m going to be the Minister for the Eurovision Song Contest,” he took a completely different approach and was absolutely interested.
And, bizarrely, I was also the Minister for the Coronation. So, in that week, I had the Coronation on the Saturday and then the following Saturday, we had Eurovision.
It was the best week of my life. It was phenomenal. Going from something quite historic, traditional, and quite unique because we hadn’t seen a coronation for 70 years. Most of us have never seen one. And then, going from that to Liverpool to do Eurovision. Both of those events, to me, showed Britain at its best because it showed two, totally different events, but put on with the most amazing professionalism.
When Liverpool was chosen, I remember Martin Green, who’d been asked to do it by the BBC, came to see me. And we also had all the teams from Liverpool City Council come and they presented their ambitions for what they were going to do for the week. I thought, “We’ve got six months to do this. How on earth are you going to get all of that done?” And Claire from Liverpool was like, “No, we’re doing it. We’re doing it.” And do you know what? They did.
It was amazing. What was phenomenal was that we took people around the whole of Liverpool, and they saw all the references to Ukraine. Some of it was really moving. Monuments covered in sandbags, having a Ukraine village where there were organisations representing Ukrainian people, talking about their country. And I took the Ukrainian ambassador to the UK, and his wife, around Liverpool. His wife said to me, “I feel like I’m at home.” And I thought, “That is such a credit to the team for what they’d done.” So that was one of the highlights.
The other was just seeing the visual stuff that they’d put on a PowerPoint in real life. This amazing set that they had created was phenomenal. And the branding of it, which, incidentally, the Eurovision Song Contest have kept all of the logos, the strapline, ‘United By Music’, they’re keeping it. That is a testament to our creativity.
I was talking to someone from Norway who’d been to 15 Eurovision Song Contests. And he said, “This was by far the best.”
The final question for you is what was the last thing that you saw at the theatre, or on screen, that you enjoyed, and you would recommend others watch?
The one thing about this job is, you do get to go to some amazing things. I’m very fortunate. I was asked to go to the European premiere of Wicked. I had a lot of very jealous friends who were asking me all about it. And that was phenomenal to go to, the atmosphere that was there, seeing all of the cast really excited about the premiere was phenomenal to see.
But, also, do you know what? It’s not just about the big stuff. I actually love seeing the community stuff. I remember, in my previous constituency, organisations that put on productions for the local community. They call them amateur dramatics but the degree of professionalism that they’re bringing into it, I think is just phenomenal to see.
And that’s what’s great about the creative industry, isn’t it? You can have a Hollywood blockbuster like Wicked, and then you can see a local production in your town hall. All of which, I just think, makes this such a great industry to be part of and celebrate.
