The Spotlight Podcast: Championing Diversity with the Diverse Squad

Episode Transcript:

Ilayda:

Hello and welcome to the Spotlight podcast. Today, I’m joined by two members of the Diverse Squad. Now, the Diverse Squad are a collective of diverse film and TV agents fighting for better racial representation within the industry. Today we have two of those agents joining us from the collective, Mildred Yuan and Sara Sehdev. Thank you for being on the podcast, guys. It’s an absolute pleasure to have you here.

Sara:

Thank you for having us.

Ilayda:

So just to get us started, it would be great if you could introduce yourselves and let us know a little bit about what you do and what your backgrounds are. Sara, we can start with you.

Sara:

Hello, I am Sara Sehdev. I run a boutique talent agency called Core MGMT. We were established in 2013. I previously worked at Independent Talent and Hamilton Hodell as well as at Spotlight itself prior to starting Core. My agency focuses particularly on talent who are underrepresented from diverse backgrounds or alternative training routes, as well as more traditional schools. In the last few years, I’ve also started doing a little bit of producing, focusing on diverse storytelling and developing new talents. I was a producer on the feature film Boiling Point, which got nominated for some BAFTAs, which is pretty cool, and a film called Accused on Netflix.

Ilayda:

Amazing. I’m going to definitely pull you to one side afterwards and ask you all about Boiling Point because absolutely loved it. Thank you, Sara. And let’s go to you, Mildred. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Mildred:

Well, actually this is a really exciting time for me because after 11 years at United Agents, I’ve just left and started my own business, and it’s a hybrid business. I’m still going to be an agent for a select number of clients, but the other parts of my business is going to be about diversity consulting and coaching and mentoring for especially targeted at those from underrepresented groups.

Ilayda:

Amazing.

Mildred:

Yeah, you’re catching me at a great time. This is the first podcast I’m doing under my new banner, so it’s really exciting. Thanks for having me.

Ilayda:

What is that new banner?

Mildred:

I’m just going under my name. I’m Mildred Yuan, so you can find me under www.mildredyuan.com and I am on Instagram and Twitter as well.

Ilayda:

Amazing. Well, that sounds like an amazing venture. I’m so pleased to be in such good company. So for any of our listeners who were unaware, please could you tell us a little bit about what the Diverse Squad is and how it was first formed?

Sara:

Absolutely. So let’s go back to the murder of George Floyd, which sounds like a really doom and gloom place to start, but actually it did kick all this off. In light of that tragic event, the Personal Managers Association, which is the body of agents, came together and wanted to see what we could or should be doing to support Black and brown communities within our own space. So how we could help actors of colour and see what we could do to improve the way they were working, the way they were treated. It was a big question. So among the sea of faces, there were a small number of non-white agents on that call.

We volunteered to get together and came together as the PMA Racial Diversity Group, which is quite a mouthful. So we call ourselves the Diverse Squad quicker and easier, and we wanted to see what we could do to improve the industry. So our next step was to survey actors, and we didn’t know what we were going to get out of this. I think we thought we might get a hundred responses. So we set up a survey asking actors about their experiences, and it was specifically for non-white actors to respond. We actually had over 1,300 responses, which was, I think, a shock to all of us really, wasn’t it, Mildred?

Mildred:

Oh, yeah. But I mean, you did such a great job on that, like encouraging people to come forward and say their piece. And I think making it anonymous really helped because people felt like it was a safe space where they could actually say what they thought.

Sara:

Absolutely. And so we worked with the results of that survey with the Lenny Henry Media Centre in Birmingham City University to actually crunch through the data and the results of which we have been using to address what we want to be focusing on as the Diverse Squad. Things that we can see that actors really need help and support with. Those are things like the types of parts they get seen for, the inability to address racial stereotypes in the scripts, racial stereotyping in auditions. It still makes me really sad. 55% of our respondents had experienced racist behaviour in the workplace. They’re going into work to go and do their job, and they’re having issues with racism. That just seems bananas that over half of those respondents have had that issue. So those are some of the things that we are trying to fix, a long process.

Ilayda:

Well, of course it’s going to be, I’m sure, a long and very stoppy-starty two steps forward, one step back kind of process, but someone’s got to do it. And I guess that leads into my next question, because a lot of this is obviously around, it’s in your name, diversity. What does diversity mean to you and why do you think it’s important, obviously, within the world, but in particular within this industry?

Mildred:

Well, I think within the understanding of diversity, there’s a plethora of responses, and it’s very individual to each person and between the members of the Diverse Squad and even between Sara and I, it means something different. And I think it’s about people who work in diversity. We should respect everyone’s how it’s significant to each individual person. For me, it’s really about addressing the equality of opportunities and making sure that there is access to all the same opportunities regardless of what skin tone you have, what colour you are, what nationality you are, what gender you are. It’s really about levelling the playing field so that you can really be judged on your merits and how hard you work rather than something that you can’t control.

Sara:

So what’s interesting is that I come at it from the other side. I think that if you have a more diverse workforce, you end up with a richer and more interesting outcome as well as it being more appealing to your audience, who there’s so many people that needs to be served by what they’re watching. And I think that if you can create integrated work that feels like it is representative of everyone, your audience wins. And that should be reflected in a creative process. But actually it circles back to what Mildred’s saying about inclusion and levelling the playing field, like everybody wins.

Ilayda:

Yeah, I suppose I’ve talked about this on the podcast before where we’re very much in the business of telling stories, and if you are only telling or showcasing a very particular type of story or particular type of person within stories, then yeah, you’re not telling enough stories that are going to actually hit people and reach them and speak to them because there’s only one type of person that’s probably going to actually see themselves in that. So yeah, that’s really lovely.

Sara:

I think that’s right. I think you look at a show like Lenny Henry’s Three Little Birds, and that is about Windrush community. But actually my mum who is Indian and came to this country in the ’60s, it really spoke to her because she grew up in Dudley and Wolverhampton. So for her, it was so incredible to see that experience reflected back. And it’s not that it’s just it’s only for the Black community. There are people that respond to these stories and understand these stories, and I think we have a duty to make sure that we’re looking after everyone and making sure everybody feels that they are seen and understood on screen.

Ilayda:

Yeah, I know that it comes up every now and then on Twitter, sorry, X, that the phrase representation matters, but it really, really does in this context.

Sara:

Absolutely. I don’t think I really appreciated it enough until my son was born and my son is mixed race, and he is the whitest child on Earth, but he is half-Indian, and part of me really wants to make sure that he understands and sees that reflected back because I had never really worked in the diversity space before the last five or six years. And I do think that him and his heritage and understanding his ethnicity has spurred me up to get more involved in this space.

Ilayda:

Yeah, I mean, when it’s personal, it’s personal, right? So when it comes to diversity, what do you think are some of the most significant barriers that you’ve observed within the acting industry? Either, and this can be either through your own experiences or indeed through the results of the surveys that the Diverse Squad has carried out.

Mildred:

Well, I mean there are barriers everywhere, and I think people tend to focus on the ones that are really obvious or the ones that we can see. And under the Equality Act, there is a distinction between direct discrimination and indirect discrimination. And what’s really interesting about this distinction is I think when people think about discrimination, they think about it in terms of people being racist, people saying things overtly trying to differentiate between people with these certain skin tones and those with another skin tone. But it’s not always like that. A lot of times it’s like the indirect discrimination you have to look at where you have to look at the actual infrastructure and processes and see if inadvertently you are disadvantaging a group of people.

And I mean, taking another example that’s not race like now, a lot of companies are looking at things like working hours or holidays because that indirectly disadvantages women who have childcare or caring responsibilities. And it’s those sorts of things that I think are far more insidious that stand in our way. And I think people are so focused at the moment and they have this knee-jerk reaction to being like, “Well, I’m not racist,” or “I’m not this,” or “I’m not that.” And it’s not really about that. It’s about looking at all the processes that impact people, all people, and making sure that everyone is at least getting a fair shot at it. And I think a lot of times people go, “Well, it’s not my experience,” but they don’t really ask what other people’s experiences are and different people experience things in a different way. And what might be a wonderful experience for someone on set.

I mean, taking the hair and make-up as an example, if you ask a lot of Caucasian white actors, they’ll be like, “Oh, yeah, the hair and make-up team were amazing. They really looked after me.” And then you’ll ask a non-white actor about the exact same experience and they’ll be like, “No, they didn’t have any of my hair products. They burned my hair. They then tried to make excuses for it. They didn’t have my colour.” So we heard a terrifying story where someone, because they didn’t have their colour, the make-up artist said, “Well, it’s okay. We have some hot chocolate and we can use that on your face instead.” And I think it’s about listening to each other’s stories and understanding that you can have different experiences and understanding what you experienced, just it’s not going to be the same. And making sure those structures and those processes are friendly and kind to everyone.

Ilayda:

Yeah, yeah. And I suppose this sort of leads me to another question that I was going to ask anyway, and maybe it’s more of a leading question than an open one, bad journalism, but do you think that the answer to this is to have authentic and varied voices as high up in the production process as possible?

Sara:

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Mildred:

Well, Sara, you’ve been a producer, so how have you dealt with this when you have run to that?

Sara:

It’s one of the reasons I wanted to start producing because I could see these processes for clients and I couldn’t understand why I was asking for things that I consider basic rights to my clients, why anyone would say no. So for me, part of beginning to produce and learning more about being a producer, I would not say I’m a full-time producer. That’s not what I’m trying to do. I’m trying to learn so that I can be better for my clients.

It’s just so frustrating when you come up against things that seem obvious to you. And it is things like the hair and make-up, I think that one we will keep coming back to, because for me, it’s vital that clients have a consultation or a conversation with a hair and make-up artist before they set foot on set. And that’s something on productions that I have worked on. I have made sure those conversations have happened in advance of them getting to sets so that everybody knows what’s to be expected. Everybody’s had a chance to make sure they’ve got the right colours, or they know that that client has Afro hair that is currently in locks, or they’re briefed, they should be briefed. There’s so many things that we as agents feed on to production before our client gets to set. And it’s just making sure that information does actually get all the way through so that people can be fully prepared.

Ilayda:

And again, that involves having people, a huge diverse range of people right from the top down so that those conversations are happening from the off rather than afterthoughts, right?

Sara:

Yeah, absolutely.

Mildred:

Yeah, I think it’s really investigating what we as an industry think of as default, and this is back to the indirect discrimination point as well like where people get treated on equally, it’s when you assume that a default is the same for everybody and it’s not. And it unfairly disadvantages someone else who is not that default. So if you assume everyone’s going to have white skin or everyone’s going to have a certain type of hair, and so you don’t have to for those people have meaningful consultation about their make-up or their hair because when you arrive, it’ll be there and it’ll be okay. And the stuff that they have, okay, you’ll discuss it, but they’ll have it there. But if you’re not the default, then there needs to be an extra care taken so that you talk about it in advance so that you can think differently and do things that are not the default for someone who has different colour skin or different hair. And I think that’s what’s really important. Everyone needs to be involved in this conversation.

Ilayda:

Yeah. And presumably to the point where the concept of whiteness and that doesn’t become the default. Because at the moment, it sounds like what’s happening is that there’s a sort of otherness created by anybody within the industry who isn’t white, and we want to get to a point where we can actually move beyond that.

Sara:

That’s right. I think that’s really fair. And I think that diversifying teams is really important so that you have a camera and lighting team that are able to light black skin so that you can see it, or you have someone in your hair and make-up team who knows what they are doing. And this is not something that needs to be taught as a one-week course. This needs to be fundamental in all of the training in all of the departments. And at the moment, it’s not. And we are saying, “Let’s put more Black faces or brown faces on screen,” but if you can’t provide for them and if you can’t support them, you’re going to lose that workforce again.

Ilayda:

So coming to this idea of, I mean, you’ve spoken about some of the horror stories of your clients or well, the survey respondents and about not having the right products provided for them. Because I know the answer to this, but let’s get the listeners to hear about the answer, what has the Diverse Squad done to address this?

Mildred:

Well, so in the survey, one of the key facts was that 71% of the respondents had had some sort of issue with their hair and make-up that had to do with their heritage or nationality, which is shocking, like 71%. So I think this is why we decided it was going to be our tent pole issue and we were going to do something about it. And Sara, ever the ultimate connector, she knew Marc Sinclair at M·A·C Cosmetics and was like, “Hey, why don’t we all have a conversation about this?”

And we got together and we’re like, “Can we actually make it a nice thing so that everyone has the products that they need?” Because a lot of times the issue for those with darker skin tones or with Asian skin tones, it’s like they don’t have colours dark enough or with the right tint in it, like I’m more of an olive and Sara will have more of gold tones in her skin that I don’t have, which aren’t in just standard white make-up. And Sara, what was the range that M·A·C had? They had the greatest range of colours, isn’t it 96 or something like that?

Sara:

So it is currently 68, and I think that they’re intending to increase it because they actually do review the range of shades that they provide and they update it, which I’ve actually never heard of any other make-up brand doing.

Ilayda:

That sounds really unique. Super, super unique.

Sara:

And they already have the largest range of shades, 68 shades is amazing. Most make-up brands, if you go into a store, sometimes they don’t have more than 10 or 15. So it is quite incredible. And M·A·C, they’re really the front-runner in this. They have been working towards having more inclusive shade ranges for a long time. So when I reached out to them, they were very keen to get involved. They understood the enormity of the problem, and we wanted to try and find a solution together that would help. And as such a worldwide brand as well, that was a real significant part of the puzzle because yeah, I mean you can get M·A·C in every country.

That’s the amazing thing about it. You can get it everywhere. So there should never be an excuse that someone can’t get that colour or the equivalent. We are not saying you have to use M·A·C products, but M·A·C we are using as a standard. So we are hoping that actors will go into a M·A·C, go and find out what your shade is and tell your agents. So when your agent is at the point of booking you and they’re sending over your national insurance number and your address and your dietary requirements, they’re also sending over your foundation shade. So that can be sent onto the make-up team and so that no one can go, “Oh, I didn’t know you were that colour. Oh, I don’t have that colour for you. I haven’t got that make-up shade.” And as I say, we’re not saying you specifically have to use M·A·C products, although they are brilliant. We are saying that that is something that you can use as a reference. So if you use Lancôme, any make-up artist should know what the equivalent colour is for the brand that they tend to use.

Mildred:

And we couldn’t do this without Spotlight, of course, who’s our other partner in this. And I think we are talking about linking up with the new Ethnicity and Heritage feature. There will actually be a box where actors can put their shade, so it’s like their M·A·C foundation number or equivalent. And we’re asking people to be loud and proud about it. Because if people don’t start doing it, then it doesn’t start becoming normal. And we absolutely want this to start being normal, that everyone has their shade and everyone’s shade is different, but we cater to everybody. And the other thing that’s happening, which is really great, is for all Spotlight members and productions, M·A·C are giving a really great industry discount. So it’s 25% for actors, 35% for productions. And so that way, it’s a little bit extra incentive to be able to have the right stuff and do the right thing. And I think that in itself is really exciting. So yeah, I’m hoping everyone gets on board.

Ilayda:

I mean, I hope so too. Immediately, I’m clocking, I want to go away and Google it. If somebody wanted to Google this, what’s the name of the collaboration? Where can they find the information?

Mildred:

I think it’s called the Inclusive Complexion Edit and M·A·C have their landing page up and there is a collection of products that are designed for darker skin tones. So if you are a budding producer and you’re like, “I don’t know what to get,” you could get this curated collection, that means you will have most of the colours and be able to do any skin tone. And we’re going to do some videos where it’s going to be like, “This is how you create every skin tone.” So that’s going to be very exciting.

Ilayda:

Wow. And are those videos aimed at performers, make-up artists, production teams? Anyone?

Sara:

Everyone.

Mildred:

The world.

Sara:

The onus should not be on the actor. I think that’s really important to remember because actually it disproportionately disadvantages actors of colour because white actors just expect to be catered for and usually are, and actors of colour are having bad experiences on set. They are not being provided for in the same way. It is not equitable, it is not right. And really it’s not legal. And I think this is something that we haven’t really talked about. There is legality around this and it shouldn’t have to get to the stage that an actor sues a production for people to really pay attention to this. We should be nipping in the bud while we can.

Mildred:

And being proactive.

Ilayda:

Yes. And actually trying to pave that way. But also not least because why should the onus again fall on the people who have already been discriminated against to then fix the mess as it were.

Mildred:

But that’s a really important point. I think everyone needs to be involved in this. And I guess one of the things in doing diversity work is that there’s always this elephant in the room where white actors are like, “But what about us?” And I’m like, “Well, be part of the conversation.” And I think it’s really, really important that we all feel included in this work because it’s about understanding the experience from someone who is not you and being like, “What can I do about it?” Because let’s be honest, it might be like this way now, but one day the wheel always turns. It’s that thing where they’re like, “If they’re coming for someone else now, they’ll come for you tomorrow.” So it’s about standing up together and being like, “How do we fix this? We don’t want any inequality. This is wrong.” And I do think that I know sometimes when we talk about this, people feel excluded from the conversation, but they shouldn’t. They should absolutely join in the conversation and be part of the solution.

Ilayda:

Right. It comes back to this concept of advocating for equity and equality for others doesn’t take away your agency or doesn’t take anything away from you.

Sara:

Absolutely.

Mildred:

Yeah. I mean, I do understand some people feeling that way or some people feeling guilty or being like, “Well, there’s all this time being spent on talking about an identity that isn’t mine.” I do get that, and I do have empathy for that. And I think what I would say to that is, “Well, a lot of people, that’s how they felt for years when it was assumed that white was normal and default.” And I think we could all just think about, okay, how is this different for someone else? And if it’s different in a bad way, if it disproportionately disadvantages someone, how do we fix it? How do we make it kinder?

Ilayda:

How do we make it kinder? That’s a lovely sentiment. That sounds amazing. I’ve got a few more questions to just carry on the conversation a little bit. I wanted to ask this earlier, but I got excited about going into the M·A·C stuff, but there was a mention of creating authentic opportunities for actors of colour, and I just wanted to touch on that and discuss the difference between the importance of authentic casting over tokenism because I know that there’s a lot of, I think, conceptual confusion between the two, and I think that we should hear… I want to talk about it.

Mildred:

I mean, I think there is a temptation, and it’s back to that knee-jerk reaction we were talking about. Like, “Oh my God, we don’t want to be racist. It comes from a really good place. We don’t want to discriminate.” And then the next thing sometimes people do is they go, “Okay, so what are the boxes we need to tick?” Or “So give me a framework. And then after I do that framework, racism will be fixed.” But it’s not about that. It’s like a dynamic process. And I think we should think about casting authentically in that way too. It’s appropriate for some projects where it’s about a true life story and it’s really important that people have lived experience. There will be other stories where like a fantasy series or something where it can literally, the characters can be from any place, they can be from any planet, they can be any colour.

And in which case that is more about, “Well, have we looked at everybody and truly looked at all the options?” And I think sometimes there’s a real temptation to go, “Okay, so one of these, one of those, one of those other ones.” And then you get the United Colours of Benetton casting. And while I appreciate the effort when I look at these because it’s still so much better than it was, but still I’m just like, “Well, are we looking at this in the right way?” And rather than ticking the boxes and making sure no one’s offended, how do we get the right people telling these stories in a way where everyone feels heard, everyone feels represented, but also it’s not just a tick box exercise and okay, we’re done. I don’t think those make the best stories. I don’t know. What do you think, Sara?

Sara:

It’s a tricky one, isn’t it? Because I think that there is a place, as you say, for authenticity when it lends something to a story. But I do think that pushing very authentic casting can have a disproportionate effects on non-white communities because you are already in the minority. And then if you’re looking for very specific things within those smaller communities, I think that that can have negative effects. So it is really tricky. I think sometimes a casting breakdown will say that they want someone Black and then specify African or Caribbean, but actually it doesn’t matter to the story.

But if you have that situation, you are immediately ruling out one whole section of people unnecessarily. And I think we have to be very careful around that. And there are casting directors doing great work around this, but it is something that I think we need to be very cautious of that we don’t make it harder for ourselves. And especially what we definitely don’t want is producers turning around and going, “Well, we couldn’t find that thing, so we won’t try and include that next type. It was too difficult.” That is what we really need to be very careful of.

Ilayda:

Right. How much does the type of stories that we tell and the type of stories that we’re commissioning play into this? Because if it’s always one type of person telling one type of story, then I suppose we’re probably going to be veering into the tokenistic realm of tick box exercises, right?

Mildred:

Yeah. I think it’s such a balance, right? Because you do have to think about diversity on all dimensions, and that in itself, you find yourself ticking boxes, “Have I done this? Have I thought about that?” And that is important, but I do think it still needs to be a dynamic process that is very human-focused. And you’re right, it has to start from the very beginning of the process. And one of the things that I’m starting to really enjoy seeing are stories that are written by people from underrepresented groups, but it’s not about their race and their culture.

And I think that’s when it really works, because I think ultimate tokenism is just like, “Well, you’re here, but you can only tell the story that is about your skin colour.” And one of the first things I saw like this, which I just absolutely loved, was the, on Netflix, To All the Boys I’ve Ever Loved. And I was just like, it was so cute. Everyone can identify with that, with the teen angst and that experience no matter what race you are. And yeah, I thought they did a really great job with that. And I think there’s now commissioners are getting better at this, at selecting these stories, these universal stories, and they may be written by people from an underrepresented group, but it’s not about that.

Sara:

I think Never Have I Ever is another really good series, again, Netflix, very forward-thinking in terms of they’re universal stories. We went to high school, we had relationships, we had boys that we had crushes on. It’s exactly the same experiences as for white people. So it’s important that that’s actually shown.

Mildred:

Yeah, I mean one of the great examples is, I mean, ITV have been doing a really great job of this. They have their whole diversity acceleration plan, and yeah, they do look at so-called boxes, so to speak. They look at data that involves people from underrepresented groups, and they tend to focus on the groups where there’s the biggest gap on where they need to be versus where they are. And I think part of diversity work is you do have to look at that, but then they then have a wider conversation with the rest of ITV and it plays into everything from their commissioning to who’s in front of camera to who’s behind camera, to the education programmes that they have. And so they’re an example of a commissioner that’s really leading on this right now and a broadcaster who’s really leading on this. And so it is possible, and they’re making great strides and great impact, and every single year you can see that they’re making an improvement for these underrepresented groups.

Ilayda:

And I mean, what I’m hearing is that it’s very much a very dynamic process where, as you said earlier, it’s not just, okay, everyone into a room for half an hour, three times a month, or once every quarter, and then now it’s fixed, it’s done, but actually a very ongoing kind of this facet feeds into this, and then this facet feeds into the next and living, breathing kind of active pursuit rather than a passive and reactive one.

Sara:

We’re not going to solve racism. It’s just not going to happen. So we need to keep working and we need to keep reviewing and reanalyzing. And I think there’s no harm in being data-driven. I actually think it’s a really good idea because you can prove your numbers and say, “Yes, we did do really well at this,” or “Actually we failed at this,” and there’s nothing wrong with that, that there’s work to be done. And actually putting the work in, and as Mildred says, I think ITV are at the forefront of this.

Ilayda:

Yeah, that’s amazing. Thank you. Just a few more questions from me. What would you say some of the other positive impacts are that Diverse Squad has had on the industry?

Sara:

When we first started, the term BAME was being kicked around a lot, standing for Black, Asian and minority ethnic. It was a lazy catch-all for all non-white people, and we felt very strongly that it needed the boot. And so we managed to get rid of it pretty sharpish with the support of casting directors who had been previously using it in their breakdowns. They understood why we didn’t want to use it, but were also very supportive in that. And so we have stopped using that terminology.

Mildred:

I think the whole issue that we had with it was that it was a grouping term for people who were actually quite diverse in that group. And when you group together South Asians with Africans with Chinese people and just go call them, “They’re all BAME people and they just fit that box.” No one likes feeling like that. No one likes it at all. But we do understand that sometimes you need a term for being like, “Well, actually I’m trying to do my best and I want to diversify my casting and I want this role to be diverse,” or “I need a certain sort of characteristic.”

And most of the time we’re just like, “Well, be as specific as you can, it’s totally fine to say Black, I want a Black woman in this role.” And I know a lot of people are like, “Oh, is it okay? Oh my God.” And that’s actually really helpful, but sometimes I do get it. I do see lots of casting breakdowns where they’re like, “I would like this role to be diverse.” And then what happens is all the agents, we just go, “What kind of diverse? Disability? Neurodiversity? Race? Gender?”

Sara:

Gender, yeah.

Mildred:

But then there are other grouping terms sometimes like, “Well, we’d like this to be global majority.” And there’s also a debate about that term because I mean, our late friend, Marvin Godfrey, bless him, he said it in a really great way. He was just like, “Well, I mean, I understand global majority is supposed to be positive, but in this industry at the moment, I don’t feel like we’re a global majority and I don’t know what that means.” And in a way, we’re just like, “Well, yeah, and it means different things to different people, and that’s still confusing.” So I think we need to continue the conversation and maybe agree some terms or back to language again where we understand what each other are talking about. And maybe it’s like for racial diversity, maybe it’s that racial diversity or ethnically diverse or something when you have to use a grouping term, but wherever possible, prioritise the individual, prioritise the human. That’s what we all want.

Ilayda:

Right. I mean, I think that distinction between racial and ethnic diversity is actually a hot one. I mean, I’m Turkish, but I’m very aware that I absolutely don’t present as the kind of typical ideal that people have when they think of a Turkish person. And over and over again, people would say to me, “Oh, this is a BAME opportunity that you should apply to.” And I was like, “I don’t know, man, that feels wrong.” Because I know that that’s not what that was set up for, but it’s also difficult when it comes to language and grouping because it’s just lumped everybody together in a very specific… Yeah. So I think I love the work of trying to unpick these kind of grouping terms and figure out some of the difficulties and the nuances when it comes to that. It’s really important, especially where things like casting breakdowns are concerned and opportunities for employment.

Sara:

I think it’s important to talk about it. We don’t have to get it right straight away, but I do think that we all need to be open to listening to each other and understanding if someone finds terminology upsetting or problematic, let’s try and find another solution.

Ilayda:

Right. I mean, ultimately, no one’s ever going to slam dunk something in the first attempt. So it’s just about actually listening to people.

Sara:

And finessing things over time. There’s nothing wrong with that. I just think we need to do it, as Mildred says, in a kind and respectful way to everybody.

Ilayda:

Yeah, wise words. So couple of last questions. What advice would you have for actors who are finding it challenging to be seen in the industry?

Mildred:

So I always hear a lot about this, especially in January, when everyone’s like, “It’s the new year, this is my year. I have this goal of having 10 auditions with these casting directors,” or whatever, and I’m like, well, the part about our industry that is really, really difficult is how much of it for the actor that is out of your control and what roles they’re looking for, what’s been commissioned this year, what’s available. This year, we have the new thing of now that the strikes are over, which productions are coming back online and who’s available now, and oh, brilliant, goodie, goodie.

But within all of that, I think it’s really important to focus on the stuff that you can control and not worry about the stuff that you can’t. And the things you can control is how you articulate and express your personal brand and how you’re different and what you can contribute to the conversation. And I think sometimes things that I find disheartening or when I hear all the chatter on Twitter and on social media where it’s like, “Oh, but people won’t see me for this.” And I’ve heard these conspiracy theories about these casting directors not ever seeing these sorts of people. And you have to have a certain agent, and I’m like, “All of this stuff is stuff you can’t control.”

And at the end of the day, they are myths. And what you can control is, is your showreel up to date? Is your Spotlight CV up to date? Are you coherent about what you want and what you’re putting out there? You wouldn’t believe the number of people where they’re like, “I really want to go for film and TV.” And then they have all their credits and they have their theatre credits at the top and you’re like, “It doesn’t look like that, does it? You’re not really putting it out there.” And also so many of the screen opportunities, people need to see what you look like on screen, is your showreel up to date? I speak to lots and lots of theatre actors who have been in theatre for 10 years and they’re like, “Really want a screen opportunity.” And I’m like, “Okay, where’s your showreel?”

And they’re like, “Well, I have a reel of me doing theatre.” I’m like, “No, that’s not what I meant. Even if you can tape yourself doing a scene that you’ve written or doing a monologue and showing people what you look like in that context, that’s so helpful. Help them help you.” And I think that is the bit that people sometimes miss out on in these conversations like, “What can I do? What power do I have?” And we all have power. And that’s why one of my big things is I’m like, “Find your superpower. Find the thing that you can uniquely do that no one else can, and then get up on a box and shout about it and let us know about it.”

Ilayda:

Yeah.

Sara:

I’m taking lots of notes here, Mildred. Thank you so much.

Ilayda:

So am I. I mean, ultimately this is an industry where so much is out of our control, either as performers or indeed agents. And sometimes even as the people making the work, we’re beholden to forces that we have no control over. So I think it’s a recipe for madness to completely and utterly focus and obsess over the stuff that we can’t control. So it’s a really refreshing way to look at it. Sara, did you have anything that you wanted to add to that?

Sara:

No, I think Mildred’s really summed that up very well. I think one piece of advice I would give is just remember that your agent is working for you. I think people forget that. I think that you have to remember that we only get paid when you do, so it is in our interest for you to be working. We are trying to get you work. So I think that is worth bearing in mind. And if you feel like you don’t have the relationship with your agent you want, talk to them about it, have a proper thought through conversation about it with them, don’t hound them, but actually have a proper fully fledged conversation where you are working out what you can do as a team.

It is a team effort. We can only pitch what we have, so make sure your material is the best that it can be. And look, you can go and make short things these days. You can shoot some amazing stuff on your phone, use your spare time, write things, create things, put things out there into the world. We’ve never had such an amazing set of platforms to be able to share our art. And that can be TikToks where you are playing all of the dames at the same time. There’s just so many brilliant things out there right now and those are actors who are just thinking outside the box, and it gets them work.

Ilayda:

Yeah, I can definitely think of off the top of my head at least five whose hilarious TikToks have definitely led me to seeing them kind of all over the place after that.

Sara:

Absolutely. It works. It really does. And it is putting yourself out there and taking a risk and deploying the madness of what we have been gifted from the US in terms of social media platforms. Utilise them to your advantage.

Ilayda:

Yeah, I get it. If you can’t fix it, feature it.

Sara:

200%.

Ilayda:

Okay, so final question from me. Oh, no, sorry, two final questions. Sorry. Do you have any tips for unrepresented actors looking to find an approach an agent?

Sara:

I think look at their lists, see what kind of actors they look after. I know for me, I try not to have actors that clash with each other because I feel quite passionate about that. I feel like if I’m getting on the phone to pitch a client, I want to pitch a single client. So for me, I don’t have a lot of actors that overlap, whereas some agencies have a lot of actors that overlap. So I think do your research and when you email us, personalise it. Please don’t send emails to Mildred to me, which happens all the time. Show us that you are really looking to do the work, I think.

Mildred:

And in the meantime, do a great job of representing yourself. And even when you do an agent, keep it up. You don’t just down tools and be like, “Sara, it’s your job now.” It’s like representing yourself should be your number one priority, whether you have an agent or not. I did a Twitter thread on this during the pandemic, so if people want tips on that, go there. I’ve basically done a top 10 of ways you can advocate and represent yourself, and I think everyone should be looking at ways that they can do that, whether they have an agent or not.

Ilayda:

What’s your Twitter handle? A, so that I can immediately go and look at that, and B, so that any listeners can go and check it out.

Mildred:

I’m @MildredYuan. So that’s both Twitter and Instagram. And yeah, if you have questions about, I love talking about self-representation advocacy. So if you ask me a public question that benefits the community, 90% of the time I will respond. Or maybe sometimes I’ll tag Sara in and be like, “Sara, you take this one.”

Ilayda:

Amazing. Well, I’m going to go off and write about 27 questions and I’ll at you later. So Spotlight have recently added a new feature for performers to allow them to add their ethnicity or their heritage to their profiles, and soon casting directors will be able to search for performers from a list of over a thousand options. How do you think this will improve discoverability, and what advice would you give to actors that have yet to update their profiles?

Mildred:

So we actually got a preview of this feature and we were able to input into it. And it is really super exciting because I think now actors are going to be able to self-identify in terms of their ethnicity, heritage. And I think what’s also really cool about the feature is you can decide whether or not you want it to be public on your profile or if you only want to come up in the search terms. So depending on your personal level of comfort, you can decide whether you’re ready to be loud and proud about it. And it’s like sitting there on your Spotlight profile or if it’s something well, it’s part of your lived experience and you would talk about it, but it would depend on the project.

And so if someone searches for you and you come up, then yeah, you’re open to a conversation, but it’s not like, “Hey, this is something that I want to be public.” So I do think that’s going to be really helpful for people. I think actors, if you haven’t done it yet, give it a try. You might be surprised. I know some people do have discomfort about self-identifying, but have a play with it. Maybe it feels better if it’s on the private setting and not the public one. But then how does it feel and how does it change things when it is public? Maybe not as much as you think. So I would say just have a go.

Sara:

I think we’re in an era of really understanding who we are and our backgrounds and our experiences, and I think it will definitely add a little bit more power to actors in terms of understanding who they are and sharing who they are in the room. You may not look a specific ethnicity, but if that is part of your heritage, I think it’s really lovely to be able to share that. And actually you may well be able to bring something to a role that you might not be expected to. So I think it’ll be a really interesting new feature.

Ilayda:

So a final question from me is looking to the future, what are your hopes for the evolution of the industry and how would you hope that Diverse Squad can help work towards that vision?

Sara:

I think we need greater diversity of commissioners, of producers, of production houses, of everyone at every stage, all the way through. I think that there needs to be more schemes put in place to support the development of that talent. And I think that we are getting some amazing people coming through things like BAFTA Rising Star and Breakthrough, and I think there needs to be more structure around making sure there’s that support in all of the fields because I think that will really help everybody.

Mildred:

I think for me, it’s about moving diversity from a nice to have thing to being an essential thing for everybody. And at the end of the day, I think if we all think about it, no matter where we’re from or what background we have, just promoting that makes the world better for everybody. And I would just love instead of being like, “Okay, we don’t have the budget to think about that right now,” or “We don’t have the time to think about it right now,” where thinking in a diverse and inclusive way and making people feel like they belong is just embedded in all the processes and how we work and how we do things. For me, that would be the dream.

Ilayda:

A good dream to have. And can you speak at all about what you hope for Diverse Squad’s role in that to be? Or is that all a little bit kind of your working behind the scenes, you don’t want to say too much yet?

Sara:

We’re working hard. You have to remember that all seven of us volunteer to do this. We are not paid. We do not get any kickbacks. M·A·C are not sponsoring us. So we do this because we want to make a change and because we are trying to make things better. So there are lots of things. We’re on point number three of our list of things that we originally had in our manifesto of stuff that we’d like to do. And we are, what, three years in there, Mildred, coming up to four?

Mildred:

Yeah. Is it like one thing a year? I mean, that’s kind of slow, isn’t it? I wish we could do more things in a year and then things come up while we’re working on that one thing and then we’re like, “Oh my God, should we pay attention to that?” Prioritisation is just such a problem because there’s so many issues, there’s so many issues. We wish we could solve them all, but we can’t. I mean, our major thing is we hope this M·A·C thing, we get it off the ground, everyone participates, and if by the end of the year, if everyone has their foundation shade on their Spotlight profile, I would be like, “That’s a win.”

Ilayda:

I totally agree. Yeah.

Sara:

I think that is our big one for this year. And I think that also includes trying to get more hair and make-up wording into contracts so that it is simply a staple and that there should be no argument around whether someone is provided for or not. So SAG had a big win and they got a brilliant hair and make-up clause into their agreement, and we are hoping that we can get something similar, if not stronger, into the PACT Equity agreement. And that is one of our big focuses for this year, I think. Because if we can take that off our plate in a little bit, maybe we can start working on some of the other things that we have to do.

Ilayda:

Yeah, I mean, I think it’s a really wonderful, wonderful initiative. So I personally, I’m telling every actor that’s listening to this, when it comes out, do it, do it, do it.

Sara:

Please do. And it helps your agent too. Fundamentally, it’s helping you do your job better, and that’s what we said you need to do. So go do it.

Ilayda:

And finally, where can people find you? What’s the websites? How can they follow the progress and the initiatives and everything like that?

Mildred:

Okay, so Diverse Squad, we do have both Instagram and Twitter. So Instagram, we are, let me just see, @thediversesquad. And then on Twitter, we are @DiverseSquadPMA, and we also have an email address, which is contactthediversesquad@gmail.com, and that gets checked and then we all talk about things that come through. Please do bear with us because given that it’s not our day-to-day job, it does take us some time. But yeah, you can contact us in those ways.

Sara:

And please do share your experiences with us. If you are having problems on set or you have had a particular experience, please do feed it back to us because it helps us work out what we can focus on next and what we can do to help you in the interim as well.

Ilayda:

Okay, thank you. Well, Sara and Mildred, thank you so much for having a chat. Thank you for coming onto the podcast. Thank you for your insights. It’s been a pleasure.

Sara:

Thank you so much. It was lovely.

Mildred:

Yeah, thanks for having us.

Ilayda:

Thanks for listening to the Spotlight podcast. If you would like to find out anything more about some of the topics covered, then you can always head over to the News and Advice section of our website. Also, you can find us on Instagram using the handle @spotlightuk, where you can find plenty more content, tips, and advice for all things related to the performing arts industry.

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